Curse

Net The Nabi · Apr 18, 2012, 12:46 PM // 12:46

There is so much discussion on MM's throughout this board and its all so conflicting. Some people say this, others say that, and there are some serious questions I have about MM's that I think are worth getting concrete answers, not just for me, but for the general building public. So please if anyone could shed light on these that would be great, and discussion is always encouraged.

#1. Should a minion master be purely necro, or is it more effective to use a /secondary? Such as /rit or /mo.

#2. People say its preference for Jagged Bones or AoTL but they seem like two totally different skills to me. AoTL is about keeping a wall of minions alive, no? Minions that have a high level and thus higher hp. JB's main effect is triggered by the death of minions and creates a synergy with bombing. AoTL is 15e and can really hurt your energy after dp, whereas JB is only 5e and so its easy to maintain anywhere under most circumstances.

#3. If my MM dies, all the minions turn hostile and often its worse than multiple heroes dying on my team(timewise) and sometimes leads to wipes. Is a MM worth that risk?

#4. MM seem to have anti synergy with the major protters, we bring in this meta. ST defensive rits, and EMo prot. Shelter and union and displacement all get destroyed by minions soaking up that damage, and the EMo kills himself with infuse or wastes prots like Prot Spirit on a minion people often want to die.

#5. Is running multiple MM's worth it? When one dies you can cover with veritas gaze, no? If you're going /secondary, it can provide extra defense to help with the lacking because of #4.

#6. MM's seem to be slow at the start of each area, no corpses, since nothing is dead, and speaking of slow, they physically are always behind from casting Death Nova nonstop. So often they arent with the party by the next aggro. FB can help to alleviate this, but it requires a decent spec into an attribute on TWO heroes, AND they don't use it well, as they will use it in battle when we aren't moving. I often micro it when I use it, but simply put, I find myself choosing other skills because of how much it needs in attributes to be useful. Are there any other counters to this?

#7. Explosive Growth is a skill that has great synergy with minions, and is semi-often used as a hero build. But Explosive Growth is a spawning power skill, which means you need to be a Rit to spec into it, and thus, you lose you're energy management of Soul Reaping. If you are to build an explosive growth rit, how do you keep them from running out of energy? Boon of Creation doesn't seem to cut it, and a bar is stacked by skills that you(need), such as EG itself, Minion Elite, Animate Minions, Boon of Creation, Spirits Gift, Death Nova/BoTM, Putrid bile, and anything else you see fit.

These questions are all I could think of for now but each of them is pretty standard and yet I believe hold water for debate and discussion. Feel free to disprove that and make the answers Solid fact

Lyv · Apr 18, 2012, 01:34 PM // 13:34

1) You can make it purely Necro without looking at the secondary options, but in this case have him run some curses spells, for exemple. I doubt you can find enough useful Death Magic spells to completely fill a skill bar. Mine is usually /Mo to run 10e prots and things like Convert Hexes (and/or UA as elite).

2) Depends. In areas with lots of corpses, AotL can act as a bombing trigger if the MM already has 10 minions alive. If you use Bone Minions alongside with AotL, some of your minions will have lower level (since you don't rely only on AotL).

3) When the MM dies, it's likely that all its minions died already. I've never seen it as a big concern, but you can still take Dark Bond if it bothers you.

4) There has been quite a lot of discussions on this subject. I don't use ER protters, but I've never seen any problem in running a MM with a ST shelter rit (only Shelter and Displacement as defensive spirits). Other people disagree. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

5) If there are enough corpses for it, it's usually a good idea (such areas are quite rare afaik, however).

Hope this helps a bit

Wielder Of Magic · Apr 18, 2012, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

There is so much discussion on MM's throughout this board and its all so conflicting. Some people say this, others say that, and there are some serious questions I have about MM's that I think are worth getting concrete answers, not just for me, but for the general building public. So please if anyone could shed light on these that would be great, and discussion is always encouraged.

#1. Should a minion master be purely necro, or is it more effective to use a /secondary? Such as /rit or /mo.

#2. People say its preference for Jagged Bones or AoTL but they seem like two totally different skills to me. AoTL is about keeping a wall of minions alive, no? Minions that have a high level and thus higher hp. JB's main effect is triggered by the death of minions and creates a synergy with bombing. AoTL is 15e and can really hurt your energy after dp, whereas JB is only 5e and so its easy to maintain anywhere under most circumstances.

#3. If my MM dies, all the minions turn hostile and often its worse than multiple heroes dying on my team(timewise) and sometimes leads to wipes. Is a MM worth that risk?

#4. MM seem to have anti synergy with the major protters, we bring in this meta. ST defensive rits, and EMo prot. Shelter and union and displacement all get destroyed by minions soaking up that damage, and the EMo kills himself with infuse or wastes prots like Prot Spirit on a minion people often want to die.

#5. Is running multiple MM's worth it? When one dies you can cover with veritas gaze, no? If you're going /secondary, it can provide extra defense to help with the lacking because of #4.

#6. MM's seem to be slow at the start of each area, no corpses, since nothing is dead, and speaking of slow, they physically are always behind from casting Death Nova nonstop. So often they arent with the party by the next aggro. FB can help to alleviate this, but it requires a decent spec into an attribute on TWO heroes, AND they don't use it well, as they will use it in battle when we aren't moving. I often micro it when I use it, but simply put, I find myself choosing other skills because of how much it needs in attributes to be useful. Are there any other counters to this?

#7. Explosive Growth is a skill that has great synergy with minions, and is semi-often used as a hero build. But Explosive Growth is a spawning power skill, which means you need to be a Rit to spec into it, and thus, you lose you're energy management of Soul Reaping. If you are to build an explosive growth rit, how do you keep them from running out of energy? Boon of Creation doesn't seem to cut it, and a bar is stacked by skills that you(need), such as EG itself, Minion Elite, Animate Minions, Boon of Creation, Spirits Gift, Death Nova/BoTM, Putrid bile, and anything else you see fit.

These questions are all I could think of for now but each of them is pretty standard and yet I believe hold water for debate and discussion. Feel free to disprove that and make the answers Solid fact

1. A pure necro can work, but personally I recommend to bring utility on 3-4 slots from a secondary profession like monk/paragon/rit. With minions dying all over the place the MM will get loads of energy thanks to soul reaping, so why not put that massive energy flow to good use ( with great but expensive prots for example. where a monk can only use them once in a while, the MM can afford to spam them on recharge).

2. It really is a preference. Jagged bones makes it harder for AoE to wipe your army since a new minion rises from the death of the old one, and aotl can put you from 0 minions into a full army of 10-12 instantly. Both are equally good, and both perform fine for both walling and bombing.

3. an MM brings so much defense, utility and damage ( with death nova) the risk is laughable. When the MM dies, pretty much everyone else has died before him. So yes, benefits outweigh the small risks by FAR.

4. MM does conflict with an ST protter, using both at the same time can be done, but it will mean that its possible that you have no shelter up at the moment you need it most. As far as ER protters go, I never noticed them wasting prots or fuses on minions.

5. Multiple MM's is usually not worth it, unless you are splitting or in a zone where enemies come in a bazillion swarms. but 90% of the time: do not bring more then one.

6. MM's will always lag behind, but their utility makes up for this.
If you want record times, do not bring an MM. If you prefer stability over speed, bring an MM and enjoy doing 90% of GW on HM while watching TV.

7. MM on Rit can be done, but its better on a pure necro. Boon of creation should suffice, if not bring something like signet of creation.

Tess80 · Apr 18, 2012, 01:56 PM // 13:56

My 2 cents:

#1. MM should always use a secondary. There just aren't enough worthwhile death skills to warrant a full bar. /mo for protection is used most often, but anything can work really.

#2. Unless you really overdo it, a necro shouldn't worry about energy. 15e is nothing, especially considering the normal animate skill also costs 15e. AoTL is used because it creates a durable army fast. It also destroys any minions that are now excess, which triggers Death Nova.

#3. Yes, if the MM dies, then you're in trouble, but I suppose the solution would simply be to not let him die. The fear of him dying shouldn't keep you from bringing one.

#4. You're right about the rit prots; they don't go well with minions. EMo goes well with it though. Infuse removes a portion of his current health, so he can spam it all day and stay at ~40% health because his enchantments heal him with every spell.

#5. If you have room and there are enough corpses (you kill fast enough), yes a second one can be worth it. In most cases, one is enough though. And forget the Verata stuff. Just don't die. Some tips to not die are to not use sacrifice skills (blood of the master, order of undeath...), use spirits in the team which will attract aggro, give him Signet of Lost Souls as a selfheal, and most importantly use at least two healers.

#6. Excellent point. The main disadvantage over a minion army are the lack of firepower at the start and them lagging behind. No real way around it I'm afraid. I use two version of FB in my group usually, but they still lag behind. Note that AoTL has it a little easier on both fronts though as he can summon his entire army fast and can use it at the start for a free minion.

#7. I've tried Rt/N minion masters, and prefer normal ones. The rit minions are more durable, but have weaknesses in the form of enchantment removal (and the time it costs to cast them) and the lack of ability to bring a secondary. Though it's been awhile since I tried and with the lower armor value on mobs EG might be a little more useful.

Andemius · Apr 18, 2012, 03:31 PM // 15:31

#1. No, I've never had a pure necro MM, always either N/Mo or N/Rt.

#2. I'd go for AotL any day of the week. JB seems a very useless skill to me.

#3. If your MM does die, it's unlikely that the minions will cause any major danger to your team.

#4. Correct. I no longer run a MM due to the way it eats Shelter, Union and Displacement. I never noticed any issues with my EMo when I ran it alongside a MM, but my reasoning is that ST>EMo, so MM had to go.

#5. I'd say only worth running multipul MMs if it is a setup similar to Discord, where neither has a MM elite. Otherwise it's a waste of a party slot.

#6. Not really, MMs always tend to lag behind a little.

#7. I wouldn't waste a Rit on a MM build when you could run ST or SoS instead. EG isn't really that good even.

Personally, I no longer use a MM because it eats the spirits my ST provides. I don't see any drawbacks to not using a MM, so i'd just say don't use one.

Wenspire · Apr 18, 2012, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Having an MM in the party is almost akin to having a "I WIN" button against enemy groups. One of the biggest benefits (regardless of their setup) is the massive damage mitigation the minions give.

Daesu · Apr 18, 2012, 05:10 PM // 17:10

#1 a necro is preferable because being a MM is energy intensive and minions dying synergize well with the necro's soul reaping for energy.

#2 Both are used to keep a wall of minions alive. AoTL is better for areas with lots of exploitable corpses while JB is more for areas with few exploitable corpses. As JB effect only lasts for 30s and has a 15s recharge, at most you can only have it on 2 minions so it is not as popular as AoTL nowadays. JB was more popular during the days of Discordway when inflicting a condition on your enemies is necessary for Discord to work.

#3 Hostile minions are usually not much of a problem. Shamblings would not turn into Jagged without its MM. At most they are a distraction to heroes and henchies. If you are worried about your MM dying, then fit him with Blood Bond.

#4 If you bring prot spirit, you should attempt to micro it anyway. Yes there is some level of anti-synergy between a ST defensive rit and a minion bomber but that is not so much of an issue that having the two together in the same team would not work. In certain HM areas, this can be a safer option.

#5 There are only a few areas where there are enough corpses for running multiple MMs, Vizunah Square mission being one of them. Otherwise that is not recommended because MMs can compete for the same corpse, with one of them failing when the other happens to cast earlier or faster.

#6 You should disable and micro FB if you bring it. To counter the MM from lagging behind casting death nova, you can either 1. Flag them forward, or 2. Disable death nova outside of battle and re-enable it during battle.

#7 Bring Signet of Creation. Although heroes don't always use it well, since they dont seem to know if they have summoned creatures around them before they use it, it seems to be the best energy management option for an explosive growth MM.

MMs shine brightest in smaller party sizes (e.g. 4 or 6) because of the added bodies and damage that it brings to the table. It also works great in areas with lots of offensive hexes and exploitable corpses. Otherwise, you can also do without bringing a MM if you have enough spirits.

Kunder · Apr 18, 2012, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Not going to go through points 1 by 1, but to correct a few things that are incorrect:

Multiple MMs is actually ridiculously effective. That is, 2 MMs, no more. The more minions you have the better damage is spread out (leading to less individual damage per minion), which means BotM (already the strongest mass heal spell in the game) gets even stronger. And multiple MMs also means you have multiple BotMs. This is exponential growth of survivability. This also means you don't need 2x as many corpses to run 2x MM, in fact you don't really need any more at all unless facing high damage AoE. Your minions simply last so much longer with 2 BotMs healing them and with the damage more equally spread apart.

AotL is absolutely better than Jagged Bones in all readily conceivable situations. JB _sometimes_ gives 1 lvl 19 minion every 15s, eventually. AotL gives +1 level to all minions, +1 minion every 45s, massive bar compression (necros have tons of skills they want), and instant minion-upping. There is no contest.

Order of Undeath is a good alternative to AotL if you want maximum damage. 1 AotL w/ melee minions and 1 OoU w/ Bone Fiends is a good compromise that helps play the strength of both builds.

ST rits tend to work quite well with minions actually. Keep in mind, level 20+ minions have player-level armor and health. This means they aren't really "wasting" Shelter, it's an extra first line of defense against minions getting lost. Doing elite areas, Shelter up is the difference between a bad AoE enemy instantly killing most of your minions and your minions being healed to full with the next BotM. Yes, Shelter will only protect against 1 spell in this case. That 2nd spell (if it comes) is still a hell of a lot better off killing the minions than hitting your real party.

Voodoo Rage · Apr 18, 2012, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

ST rits tend to work quite well with minions actually. Keep in mind, level 20+ minions have player-level armor and health. This means they aren't really "wasting" Shelter, it's an extra first line of defense against minions getting lost. Doing elite areas, Shelter up is the difference between a bad AoE enemy instantly killing most of your minions and your minions being healed to full with the next BotM. Yes, Shelter will only protect against 1 spell in this case. That 2nd spell (if it comes) is still a hell of a lot better off killing the minions than hitting your real party.

I totally agree. I really don't get all the hate about ST/MM anti-synergy. I run them both all the time and unless you are just constantly getting gibbed by massive AoE, the rit seems to have no problem maintaining that copy of Shelter (personally I only run Shelter and Dissonance). What you really lose out on is the fact that because your minions aren't dying like crazy, you aren't getting a lot of Death Nova explosions, so that might be a valid criticism.

Daesu · Apr 19, 2012, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

I totally agree. I really don't get all the hate about ST/MM anti-synergy. I run them both all the time and unless you are just constantly getting gibbed by massive AoE, the rit seems to have no problem maintaining that copy of Shelter (personally I only run Shelter and Dissonance). What you really lose out on is the fact that because your minions aren't dying like crazy, you aren't getting a lot of Death Nova explosions, so that might be a valid criticism.

There is a difference between a minion master where you really want to keep your minions alive and a minion bomber where you want your minions to act as bombs. Sacrificing with BoTM and Shelter to keep your minions alive runs counter to the intention of letting your minions explode on your enemies and causing damage.

Don't get me wrong, a minion master can still cause damage without death nova, it is just a different way of playing. For example, if I am using fiends which cost 25e each to animate obviously I am not going to intentionally use them as bombs and fiends have good damage on their own so it makes sense to use BoTM to maintain these expensive minions. It is just a different play style and both are viable. People are confused when both are called MMs but with different skill bar design and philosophies.

Showtime · Apr 19, 2012, 11:05 PM // 23:05

For most the game MMs make it easier, but slower than other builds.

I sometimes run a sabs healer with AoTl on micro since he has a free elite slot that is flexible for many areas.

I dont always bring death nova and that speeds up runs over all. If there are dual mm's one has death nova though.

Set them to avoid so they concentrate on making minions and the secondary skills.

Prots are great, but you can also run smite line for hexes, SOH, etc.

Wells work great in many areas.

Sometimes if there are a couple+ necros, I'll bring a minion skill for batterys and to use up bodys.

Flag them back and they die a lot less.

ruk1a · Apr 21, 2012, 09:30 AM // 09:30

I don't like MM, there are faster alternatives. I hate how they lag behind and don't offer much until there are corpses, and I don't like the spirit prot synergy, or lack thereof.

Basically they aren't aggressive enough for my tastes and I still come out on top in any HM area.

moldmaker · May 04, 2012, 11:53 AM // 11:53

i believe in mm's for one pure reason, it confuses the AI of the enemy. i also believe its better to use a staff since they "throw further than wands" thus getting minions out front. and of course there are long bows to start fights.
the beauty of this game is the amount of possible builds, so as far as pure goes.. nope.
that is the very reason area net can never "nurf " good players.
read up on death nova and how it keeps minions in back.

Gabs88 · May 04, 2012, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by moldmaker

i believe in mm's for one pure reason, it confuses the AI of the enemy. i also believe its better to use a staff since they "throw further than wands" thus getting minions out front. and of course there are long bows to start fights.

Just to dispel a potential myth at once, staves and wands have the EXACT same range!

moldmaker · May 04, 2012, 06:17 PM // 18:17

ok sry on that one